Japan taxes and social insurance: 3 million yen example, updated.

CLICK TO ENLARGE

I promised myself I would update this example from last fall, once I saw the new Shibuya Ward NHI figures, and the new kokumin nenkin payment amount for 2010.

This number is “all in” for somebody over the age of 40. You don’t pay the long term care portion of the NHI if you are under 40.

I want to point out that the combined health insurance and pension is just shy of 11% of the gross. If the same person were in Shakai Hoken, they would be having approximately the same amount withheld. Except, more would go to pension.

People seem to feel that they are ahead by not paying these. However, given the tight [i.e. slack] labor market, you can easily make the case that the employers just mark down the offering wage–since no one pressures them about enrolling English conversation staff as the law (and international treaties! – * ) require them to do.

( * – See Article 3 of the U.S.-Japan Totalization Treaty, effective October 1, 2005.)

Advertisements

54 comments

  1. S. McCarthy · May 30, 2010

    What your readers need know is once you join the NHI it is very difficult to opt out.

    I would be very careful about joining esp. if you only plan to stay in Japan for a few years.

  2. hoofin · May 30, 2010

    But again, if the rule is that any resident here is supposed to be covered under NHI, there is no “opt out”.

    And again, if someone only plans to be in Japan for a short period, why deal with the hassle of being asked for back-enrollment if the government cracks down? Why not be clean from the get go?

    What this sort of talk ends up doing is scaring short-term stayers out of their “zero income” year, where the Japanese will base the first year’s payment on an income of zero. If you get one cheap year of comprehensive insurance and one at the regular income-based priced, it’s still a much better deal than gap insurance.

  3. Steve · May 31, 2010

    If you`re going to be here for just a year then sure join. However, if you plan to stay say 2-4 years forget it.

    It`s a waste of money.

    • hoofin · May 31, 2010

      Other than the fact that it’s required by law, how is it a “waste of money” any more than gap insurance?

      If you buy gap insurance and the ward office later knocks on your door for the premiums you didn’t pay, haven’t you wasted your money there, too?

      I don’t see where staying 2 years makes it a waste–since you still get the first, low, year. And I’d hate to have to back-enroll for 4 years, plus what it says about the “short term stay” scenario anyway.

  4. S. McCarthy · May 31, 2010

    There is no reason to join the NHI or purchase any “gap insurance” if you’re not staying in Japan for a long time (or even if you are for that matter…)

    Sure you could join the first year, pay little and simply avoid paying any of the premiums the following year IF you are sure you’re taking off.

    However, if you decide to stay longer you’re screwed. Again once you sign up for the NHI it is very difficult to get out.

    Don’t worry about anyone knocking on your door. The only time that seems to happen is if you SIGN UP and DON’T pay.

    Thus far the government has made little effort to go after those who aren’t enrolled and even if do suddenly decide to start coming after foreigners there are ways to get back in without paying the penalties. Or you can some few yen to buy time until you leave.

    • hoofin · May 31, 2010

      I guess that was great advice to the typical dodger of a few years ago. But in 2012 or 2013, the new Zairyu card comes out, which will contain information such as enrollment in health insurances.

      As it is just a few years off, it means that people skipping NHI payments today, potentially could be on the hook in few years if they are sticking around. Either way, the past won’t replay itself.

      I guess it was great for cheaters when people here could cheat. But I think it’s less likely. And I think it’s a bit cowardly to try and get others to keep on for the sole purpose of cheating for yourself. But people who throw their silly commentary into their Google word searches when they “search” the blog probably just feel cowardice is just the routine of the day.

    • Simon · May 31, 2010

      >>There is no reason to join the NHI or purchase any “gap insurance” if you’re not staying in Japan for a long time (or even if you are for that matter…)

      And yet if you were to be turned away from a hospital, you’d cry foul. *sigh*

      • hoofin · May 31, 2010

        And it’s obviously what happened in Misawa. Someone who was visiting the air base got sick and had to go to a Japanese hospital—but they didn’t have insurance! So the hospital helped them out and then the patient stuck the hospital with the bill.

        http://www.stripes.com/news/misawa-plans-health-insurance-mandate-1.96220

        So then, there was some bad feeling between the hospital and local U.S. forces, because the hospital has always made itself available to Tricare insured. They were saying, “look it, we really don’t have to open ourselves up to anybody but those who can pay cash or who have the Japanese insurance.” (They work with Tricare patients, but I think it’s pay-in-full at the door.)

        The hospital did the right thing, and the military’s “guest” the wrong one. So now, the base requires that you have proof of insurance if you visit the base.

  5. S. McCarthy · May 31, 2010

    Oh the Zairyu card, the Zairyu card! We’re all going to get caught busted!

    Bullsh*t!

    There is nothing at all that suggests the Ward office will suddenly start going after gaijins who have not registered once the new card is issued.
    And I am not trying to get others to “keep on” (whatever that means…) for the sole of cheating myself. I am only explaining that once you’ve joined the NHI it is very difficult to get out and if you’re not planning to live here long-term you don’t have to pay if you don’t want. That nobody is coming after you.

    Now if you want to get on a soapbox and sing a moral tune about this so be it.

    • hoofin · May 31, 2010

      “keep on” = continue

      I guess I am Old School, but see D Train Williams: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=D+Train+Williams+Keep+On&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=aa443bb66e732105

      As for the Zairyu Card, you can’t fairly say what the circumstances around that one will be. It could well be that, when it comes out, if you don’t have the NHI, you get a bill.

      The Zairyu Card is going to contain information about pension and health.

      There was no Zairyu Card before. So how do you know? I think the worst possible circumstance is to be counting on what happened in the past.

      I’m also curious why anyone staying in Japan for the intermediate term would want to “opt out” of something that is the law. Aren’t you more likely to need to use the medical system the longer you are in Japan?

      And I don’t buy this FreeChoicer nonsense. These people overwhelmingly join kenko hoken when they’re faced with a big bill — the gap insurer pressures them to. So they’re just cheaters with no moral justification whatsoever.

      They just like to “sing a moral tune”.

  6. S. McCarthy · June 1, 2010

    ==-There was no Zairyu Card before. So how do you know?==

    Of course no one can be certain but your speculation centers more on what you’d LIKE to occur instead of anything that’s actually been written on the subject. Moreoever, we DO know that once you’ve join it IS difficult to get out. So f*ck the NHI.

    My advice is to what [wait] until they actually start going after gaijins before you think about joining.

    • hoofin · June 2, 2010

      >>Of course no one can be certain but your speculation centers more on what you’d LIKE to occur instead of anything that’s actually been written on the subject.<<

      No, it's based on the fact that the Soumu has made clear that the Zairyu Card will contain information about pension and health insurance. Before this, the central government has never made it a policy that they would track this information explicitly for foreigners residing in Japan. So that is that.

      If you don't want to join and are obviously very hostile to NHI, by evidence of your commentary, then I suppose that is your affair and your risk. But the idea that you guys are going to have a clear field to propagandize on the web and try to convince unsuspecting newcomers to avoid NHI is really something that would concern the greater community. The more people you sucker into doing the wrong thing, the more confusion gets sown into the issue. "What's it to YOU" that people join where they're supposed to?

  7. S. McCarthy · June 1, 2010

    correction: My advice is to wait…

  8. chuckers · June 1, 2010

    “My advice is to what (sic) wait until they actually start going after gaijins before you think about joining.”

    Or, better yet, why not just leave now and stop being a burden on Japanese society?

    Why should my tax yen go towards helping individuals not willing to pull their own weight when they are more than able to do so? All they are doing is feeding the xenophobia around here that foreigners are all criminals and tax dodgers.

    • gaijinass · June 3, 2010

      I am really not the “tax guy” here…however….Last I read, there were millions of Japanese nationals not using or paying into these programs.

      I make no judgment nor try to give advice but, I sort of agree and disagree. If you live here, taxes should be paid, however, joining a long term health care plan or pension plan, especially when you already have international insurance, it seems a bit ridiculous. Particularly if you know you wont be here “forever”.

      I think the government can and will end up spending more man hours going after able body Japanese that are not paying up, there are after all, many more targets out there.

  9. S. McCarthy · June 2, 2010

    —No, it’s based on the fact that the Soumu has made clear that the Zairyu Card will contain information about pension and health insurance.—
    So what? This doesn’t mean you’ll be in trouble if you aren’t enrolled. It just means you won’t have the information registered on the card. The Ward offices can EASILY ask to see proof of insurance right NOW if they wanted. They don’t need a new card to do that.

    —“What’s it to YOU” that people join where they’re supposed to?—

    If people want to join fine I’m just saying you aren’t being forced.

    • hoofin · June 2, 2010

      If you’ve been following the story on the net, one of the reasons the immigration bureau gave for the new inquiry about health insurance was that the government would be requesting this information on the new Zairyu card in the near future anyway.

      “The new inquiry” is what had been called “Guideline 8”—a requirement to show proof of proper enrollment in Japanese insurance—which was edited sometime before the effective date (April 1) to be simply a directive for the immigration bureau to ask for proof of proper enrollment in Japanese insurance.

      Where you say,

      “it just means you won’t have the information registered on the [new] card,”

      you put a lot of weight on the word ‘just’. Yes, it ‘just’ means that the administration tracks something more carefully in the future, and you ‘just’ don’t have the very thing they track.

      You’re right, they don’t need a new registration system to track who has and who doesn’t have the insurance. But they could have also decided not to collect the information for the new card at all. And they didn’t . . .

      You say, “If people want to join fine[;] I’m just saying you aren’t being forced.” I am not even going to take the bait on the

      forced vs. not forced

      argument. It’s more like “is it a requirement or not?” The answer there is “yes”. When people next go to the tired retort, along the lines of, well, what are the Ward officials going to do?, it’s pretty clear that sometimes the result is nothing. But other times, people get hit for all the back months. Because it’s a requirement.

      It shouldn’t matter to you if people join the NHI, because it’s their business and unless you are paying the premiums, not your money. It’s hardly a favor to tell people that you can not join–and that that will just be the end of it. Because it’s clear that’s not what happens these days except in cases of very short-term stays.

  10. S. McCarthy · June 2, 2010
    • hoofin · June 2, 2010

      Yes, and even on that blog’s thread, there are people who, as they stay in Japan, discover that NHI catches up with them. One poster is worried about having his car impounded and his wages garnished. But some other fools keep saying that “if you don’t enroll in the first place”, the health insurance workers won’t come after you.

      There’s a claim that “millions” of Japanese don’t pay it, but that’s never been substantiated. In fact, my observation is that the Japanese tend to take this one more seriously than the pension.

      I notice there’s a big error in the cost of the NHI compared to, surprise!, gap insurer Interglobal—which makes you wonder if this isn’t one of these guys who gets a cut for referring people to the gap insurer. Or whose boss gets a kickback for bringing all his workers into a “company” gap insurance plan.

      • hoofin · June 2, 2010

        More with regard to the Gaijinass site:

        The numbers the blog author gave in the example are ridiculous. If it wasn’t so obvious a mistake, I would say the blog entry was just meant to be a lie.

        NHI in Japan is based on taxable income–like I show above—not gross income. Taxable income out of 300 man is somewhere around 120 man. So someome making 300 man a year (250,000 yen a month) isn’t going to pay any more than 150,000 a year (12,500 yen a month).

        Yes, the rate is something like 10%. But it’s 10% of just taxable. (So even the 500 man example is wrong.)

        Also, for employer insurance (Shakai Hoken), the health insurance portion is usually 4% of the gross. The other 8% or so goes to pension.

  11. S. McCarthy · June 2, 2010

    The answer about the car being reprocessed was correct. They can go after wages or the car because the gaijin is already registered. However, they wouldn’t if he hadn’t joined because the Ward office simply CAN’T force you to sign-up which goes a long way in explaining why they aren’t chasing doing people such as myself or the Japanese not enrolled.

  12. chuckers · June 3, 2010

    “However, they wouldn’t if he hadn’t joined because the Ward office simply CAN’T force you to sign-up which goes a long way in explaining why they aren’t chasing doing people such as myself or the Japanese not enrolled.”

    You haven’t been watching the news much. They are going after Japanese now that are trying to skirt around the system.

    One municipality is going after people that haven’t been paying the money they owe for day care for their kids. How? They are requiring that those in arrears that are trying to collect the money the government is giving out for having kids (money due to even gaigin with kids) come into their city office to collect it rather than pay it into their bank accounts. They will then smack them with the money they owe. You don’t want free money? Fine. Don’t collect it. You will just have to pay higher taxes after they get rid of the dependent deduction.

    Going forward, anyone wanting to get governmental services to which they are entitled to had better be contributing their part towards supporting those governmental services.

    Want to buy a car? Fine. Provide documentation of your registered inkan (signature won’t cut it.) Where do you get that? City office. How do you get that? Go to your city office and register, showing ID. Hey, your ID shows you aren’t in the NHI! Pay up and we will register your inkan.

    This is just the thin end of the wedge. They will be cracking down and they will come after you.

  13. hoofin · June 3, 2010

    Yet another problem that site has is this inaccuracy:

    Joining the system

    Now if you want to join the system for whatever reason the first question is why?? There is no legal reason.

    There is, however. It’s required by the Health Insurance Law.

    If you do join the government plan the Japanese system will only cover 70% of your medical bills while taking 10% of your pay check every month while the private plans listed above will cover you for 100% of hospital bill for a fraction of the cost.

    No one in Japan has 10% of their paycheck taken every month for health insurance. If that weren’t such a glaring inaccuracy, I’d simply say it was a lie. The so-called “private plans” (that means gap insurance) will not cover 100% of your medical costs. They will limit their exposure with some cap, and offer no guarantee that a Japanese medical facility will even agree to treat you.

    Also if you’ve been in Japan for longer than a year you will have to pay a Health penalty for the time you’ve stayed in Japan without paying into the system.

    So first this character is telling you there is “no legal requirment” to be in Japanese health insurance. Then, he tells you that you will have to pay a “Health penalty” when you finally get around to enrolling. (I presume this “penalty” is not just the premiums you missed paying because you weren’t in the system to begin with.)

    Depending on your city government this could mean anywhere from 5 years to 2 years back payment in one lump sum. If you’ve been working at the same job earning 250,000 YEN a month that means to join the Japanese health system you will be required to pay a MINIMUM of 2 years of coverage or about 600,000 YEN (Around $6000).

    Which is it? Five years or two years? (It’s a little awkward–we’d usually say “two to five years”. Is that what he meant?) Suppose you are one year late in joining the system—do you still pay a MINIMUM two years?

    And if this “penalty” is simply having to pay the premiums you didn’t pay, it isn’t $6,000. It’s the value of the premiums, which probably were about 45,000 yen for the initial year, and 140,000 for the subsequent year. So 185,000 yen ($1,850 at 100/USD). Plus that’s tax deductible, so your out-of-pocket is in the lower 100,000 yen (maybe 130,000-140,000). Definitely not 600,000 yen.

  14. Steve · June 3, 2010

    If you`ve signed for say the NHI or child care service and don`t pay they will come after you. That`s not in question.

    The question is can you be FORCED to join the NHI? Can you have your wages garnished if you have NOT joined? Can the Ward office elect NOT to up-date your gaijin card? The answer is there is no such law set in stone which is why many Japanese and foreigners have been able to avoid paying.

    But what if they DO suddenly crack down on those not enrolled?

    Well, in that case you ask to pay on installment. You`re only paying what you would have paid anyway or much less if you’ve been out of the system for many years.

    However if I`m right (and I`m pretty sure I am…) nothing much is going to change and if at that time you now decide to opt out from the NHI good luck because they`ve got you.

    So why join (if you don`t want to…) based on something that MIGHT happen and not something already in play? For those who don`t want to it`s a better bet to simply wait and see.

    • hoofin · June 4, 2010

      The problem with wait and see is that the world is changing.

      Whatever came before, in terms of enforcement, is probably the last thing that will happen going forward.

      So by waiting, all the person does is ring up the bill. And the only way they can avoid a bigger money hole is not to be covered at all, which invites its own problems. If they buy gap insurance, they may be stuck twice.

    • chuckers · June 4, 2010

      “The question is can you be FORCED to join the NHI? Can you have your wages garnished if you have NOT joined? Can the Ward office elect NOT to up-date your gaijin card? The answer is there is no such law set in stone which is why many Japanese and foreigners have been able to avoid paying.”

      Ummm…Yes, there is.

      http://law.e-gov.go.jp/htmldata/S33/S33HO192.html

      This law has been on the books for longer than you have been alive and they are updating it continuously to go after people that have been avoiding paying into it.

  15. Tokyo Living · June 3, 2010

    Let me add my two cents: I’ve been out of the NHI for the past ten years but when my daughter was born and my Japanese wife went to put the baby on her NHI card my name came up. My wife explained I was covered in Japan by U.S. firm which isn’t true (although my wife didn’t know) and that was the end of it. I have several friends that basically said the same thing without trouble. I agree the law is vague and doubt there will be problems for those not registered when the new card is issued. Also it be noted that if you are caught it is possible to negotiate the cost down.

    • hoofin · June 4, 2010

      Let me ask you:

      When you (personally) go to the local Japanese hospitals or clinics, do you just show your card? They make you pay the bill in full, right?

      Second, with the proposal being worked on for social insurance reform (putting employer insurance and NHI into the same regional cooperative), why do you doubt there will be problems when the new Zairyu Card is issued?

      Lastly: “If you get caught”–doesn’t that mean people are supposed to be in the NHI or a valid employer plan from the get go?

  16. Tokyo Living · June 4, 2010

    1. No, I’ve never been asked to show a NHI card and yes I pay cash.

    2. Can you please explain:
    —Second, with the proposal being worked on for social insurance reform (putting employer insurance and NHI into the same regional cooperative)—

    4. I earn over 8 million yen a year and I don’t think it’s fair that I must pay as much as I would be billed. As long as my wife can cover the child I’m good (My wife pays 3500 yen a month.) Most of the foreigners I work with don’t pay into the system.

    • hoofin · June 4, 2010

      2. Can you please explain:
      —Second, with the proposal being worked on for social insurance reform (putting employer insurance and NHI into the same regional cooperative)—

      In last year’s DPJ manifesto, the party says that it intends to do away with the separate Employer Health Insurance plans and instead organize health care by regional cooperatives. At that point, there wouldn’t be “separate coverage” by employers.

      Give me a while and I’ll go find the exact footnote in the thing. [It’s Footnote 21.
      http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=2009+Change+of+government+the+democratic+party+of+Japan%27s+platform&aq=f&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=90637f8b9aed76c7 .]

      Even though Hatoyama stepped down, the DPJ is very much in control of administering the government. They’ve been working on a plan in the Labor and Heath Ministry. So I don’t think this is one that would go away.

  17. Tokyo Living · June 4, 2010

    I agree that’s best to wait and see. I’ve in Japan long enough to doubt much will change. However, if asked I will tell them I have U.S. health insurance. Also from a few conversations with the Japanese on the subject I don’t think you can actually be forced to enroll. (I know several Japanese who aren’t paying into the system either.)

    • hoofin · June 4, 2010

      I agree that’s best to wait and see.

      But I didn’t say that. What I’ve been telling people all along is that if they don’t do what the law clearly says, it means they’re running the meter.

      I don’t think you can actually be forced to enroll.

      Probably not in the sense that they are going to tie your arm to the counter and deliver electric shocks to you if you don’t move your pen across the dotted line. But as the law is written, by virtue of residing in Japan, you are part of the National Health Insurance system unless you meet a specific exception (including Shakai Hoken).

      And despite the people who allegedly don’t pay, there are a number who get caught up with–and we all have heard the anecdotes. These folks rarely trumpet the fact that the Ward office suddenly wants 50,000, or 100,000 or 200,000 yen from them. Usually, they are sheepish about the “misunderstanding”. They just figure out some way to do an installment plan and get on with things.

  18. Tokyo Living · June 4, 2010

    I’ve heard stories about foreigners who stopped paying and ran into problems but never about anyone being called in and told to join. I don’t think they can. I worked with a fellow who demanded to see the law which required that he join and apparently there isn’t one. Your local ward can’t do much if tell them you have a private health plan but they can if you join and refuse to pay. As far as the meter running I had it just over 200,000 yen when I was enrolled in the NHI years back but knocked it down to 100,000 and when it was paid off I actually received a letter of thanks.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      I worked with a fellow who demanded to see the law which required that he join and apparently there isn’t one.

      What the Health Insurance Law says is that everyone who is a resident of Japan is part of National Health Insurance unless they are covered by a specific, recognized exception (including valid Employer Health Insurance). I think the actual requirement is that you register, not that you “join”, and you pay your premiums.

      I have also heard about waivers in the past, where people were getting one form of discount or other. But Japanese friends told me that unless a ward has a specific program, those are all but impossible now. And I’m told there are some people who don’t pay, but usually these are people in special situations (like hardship, etc). Not that they simply don’t feel like “joining”.

      Registering and making arrangements is a much better approach than “wait and see”. I think “wait and see” is what is going to get people into trouble—especially with all the changes in the current government.

  19. S. McCarthy · June 4, 2010

    Of course it’s best to wait if you don’t want to join and I too agree not much will change. I don’t believe the reasons for the new card have anything at all to do with who is or isn’t enrolled in the NHI.

    In any event the NHI is going to look mighty good in comparison to Obamacare once U.S. companies begin to drop their health plan for employees and opt to pay a (cheaper) fine.

    Employees who now suddenly find they MUST pay based on their income and we all know when it comes to collecting premiums or fines the US government isn’t going to be playing games.

    The middle-class making $70-100,000 is going to get screwed big-time.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      Of course it’s best to wait if you don’t want to join and I too agree not much will change. I don’t believe the reasons for the new card have anything at all to do with who is or isn’t enrolled in the NHI.

      With a new prime minister in, I could easily see the Labor and Health Ministry issue a directive to follow up on anyone who isn’t properly enrolled.

      I don’t see where the American health care initiative has any bearing on the matter. America spends 17% of GDP on health care costs—far more than anybody. Employers never itemize what the coverage costs, and since no one knows what the real prices are, there is incredible waste in the system.

      I think the surprise in that law will be that once everyone is required to be covered, premiums are going to go down. Insurance companies won’t have to build “uncompensated care” into the price for regular coverage.

  20. steve · June 5, 2010

    —With a new prime minister in, I could easily see the Labor and Health Ministry issue a directive to follow up on anyone who isn’t properly enrolled.—

    Well, let us know when that happens but until then I certainly am not joining.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      Yes, you’ve certainly made that clear through a number of posts.

  21. steve · June 5, 2010

    —I think the surprise in that law will be that once everyone is required to be covered, premiums are going to go down.—


    LOL!!
    The only thing that’s going down will be the amount of coverage insurance companies will provide.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      But that’s already been going down for the past 50 years . . .

  22. Tokyo Living · June 5, 2010

    —And I’m told there are some people who don’t pay, but usually these are people in special situations (like hardship, etc). Not that they simply don’t feel like “joining”—

    I don’t think the reasons matters as much as the fact if you decided not to register there really isn’t much the local ward office can do about it.

    —-Registering and making arrangements is a much better approach than “wait and see”. I think “wait and see” is what is going to get people into trouble—especially with all the changes in the current government.—

    I’ve lived in Japan a long time (coming up on 20 years) my feeling is it`ll most likely be business as usual with not much to worry about.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      I don’t think the reasons matters as much as the fact if you decided not to register there really isn’t much the local ward office can do about it.

      Again, you keep repeating this, as if repetition makes it true. On the other hand, there are numerous accounts on the Net of people who blew off the ward office and got burned.

      I’ve lived in Japan a long time (coming up on 20 years) my feeling is it`ll most likely be business as usual with not much to worry about.

      No way would I want to bet that anything the expat community has been able to do over the last 20 years, they will continue to be able to over the next twenty. Or even the next two.

  23. Tokyo Living · June 5, 2010

    —Again, you keep repeating this, as if repetition makes it true. On the other hand, there are numerous accounts on the Net of people who blew off the ward office and got burned.—

    Please provide one example you’ve found on the internet where a Ward official came after someone not already registered and demanded they join and fork over what was owed.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      How about this one, under “Scam 6”: http://fukuoka.generalunion.org/alt/index.html

      And just because you are enrolled in private health insurance, it doesn’t mean that you are absolved from enrolling in SH or KKH. One ALT, who was enrolled in private health insurance was hit with a bill form 2 years back payment for KKH. When he didn’t pay it he had money seized from his bank account. Then, after cleaning out his bank account, the city then went on to seize his salary.

  24. Tokyo Living · June 5, 2010

    Yes, but that’s simply says they demanded back payment which probably means he was enrolled at the time and elected not to pay. Claiming you now have private insurance will not excuse you from paying what you owe. Where is the example of someone like myself who is clearly out of the system yet suddenly notified they face a fine for having not registered?

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      If it’s the same one, then this person had also not been in KKH.

      http://www.generalunion.org/News/576

      They had been in Shakai Hoken only, but then changed jobs. So, how would the ward find out?

      In your situation, Tokyo Living, you mention that you had been in KKH at one point, and did some deal to lower your balance. In the example I’m giving, there’s no record that the insured had ever joined a ward program.

  25. Tokyo Living · June 5, 2010

    —They had been in Shakai Hoken only, but then changed jobs. So, how would the ward find out?—

    I don`t know but obviously have been enrolled in the SH and it still be active when he changed jobs likely had something to do with it.

    —In the example I’m giving, there’s no record that the insured had ever joined a ward program—

    No, but he was in the SH and for anyone knows this info. probably followed him. In my case the KKH was completely stopped when I moved because the ward office assumed I was leaving the country.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      I don`t know but obviously have been enrolled in the SH and it still be active when he changed jobs likely had something to do with it.

      Only how? Does the SH system report to the local ward office when an insured leaves coverage. No. Right?

      But he was in the SH and for anyone knows this info[rmation] probably followed him. In my case the KKH was completely stopped when I moved because the ward office assumed I was leaving the country.

      How does the SH information do that? (that is “follow” him.) And the only real way for the ward office to notice is if the ward office is tracking enrollment of its residents. And what that means is that at least one government out there is tracking whether or not someone is insured in a proper insurance plan.

      When your KKH stopped, did the ward office assume you were leaving the country, or did you put the suggestion in their heads? Why would they assume you were leaving the country if you had a spouse and kid?

  26. Tokyo Living · June 5, 2010

    —-How does the SH information do that? (that is “follow” him.) —–

    I don`t know but my guess is being enrolled in the SH is what likely tripped him up. You`ve apparently researched this subject so I`d like to think you can provide one clear-cut example of a person who writes about not having registered with either (SH/KKH) yet suddenly finds themselves with a notice of non-payment.

    —When your KKH stopped, did the ward office assume you were leaving the country, or did you put the suggestion in their heads? Why would they assume you were leaving the country if you had a spouse and kid?—

    I told my Ward office I would be leaving (showed the airline ticket) and wanted to clean up my affairs.

    By the time I got married I was already out of the NHI.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      I don`t know but my guess is being enrolled in the SH is what likely tripped him up.

      But how? This is the critical question. SH is supposedly different from KKH. So if someone is in SH, how does the ward office find out that they’re out? What advantage would it be to a subsequent employer to dime a non-enrolled employee? So that can’t be it.

      I told my Ward office I would be leaving (showed the airline ticket) and wanted to clean up my affairs.

      So you misrepresented the fact that you would be continuing in Japan. That’s probably why they thanked you for paying 100,000 yen when you really owed 200,000 yen—they felt they were getting 100,000 more than if they had to chase you down in your home country.

  27. Tokyo Living · June 5, 2010

    —But how? This is the critical question. –SH is supposedly different from KKH. So if someone is in SH, how does the ward office find out that they’re out? What advantage would it be to a subsequent employer to dime a non-enrolled employee? So that can’t be it.—

    Again I don’t know but I do believe it is likely the reason and the reason why you can’t provide a single clear-cut example of someone (like me) who suddenly gets hit for not registering. I think we both know if foreigners had been getting caught such warnings would be readily available on-line.

    • hoofin · June 5, 2010

      But they are: here is one from last summer where Shinjuku Ward sent a notice to a resident asking for proof of enrollment in NHI —> http://forum.gaijinpot.com/showthread.php?73041-No-Child-Allowance-if-not-paying-NHI-Pension This person, an Australian, expressly states that they refused to sign up for NHI. They threw in “pension” as well, even though Australia has a totalization treaty with Japan and this person would get Japanese money under it provided they have 25 years adult-age residence between Australia and Japan.

      There are several others I’ve seen out there (of getting a call from the ward office out of the blue), but it’s hard to nail down the exact search term to bring it up. There are also several where the ward tax wasn’t paid, and somehow NHI was implicated.

  28. Tokyo Living · June 5, 2010

    Thanks for the link and I would agree that does support your postion. In any case we`ll know more in the coming years.

    • hoofin · June 6, 2010

      Probably, it’s more like the coming months, given that Nagatsuma will be reappointed by Kan. He has been working on social insurance reform but probably was impeded by Ozawa from saying much about it.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s